Thursday, February 25, 2010

Undaunted Courage Thread


Do you remember your college days? Racing your way through the text, with an occasional scribble in the side margins, as if by the very practice you would absorb the information you had so quickly read- or was that just me? So often, my sole purpose for reading the text in college was to receive credit for the course, knowledge was way down on my list of motivators. I remember very little from what I read. Go figure?!!?

My experience with college textbooks reminds me of the following quote by Walt Whitman. He wrote "The process of reading is not a half sleep, but in the highest sense, an exercise, a gymnast's struggle: that the reader is to do something for him or herself, must be on the alert, just construct indeed the poem, argument, history, metaphysical essay--the text furnishing the hints, the clue, the start, the framework." Why didn't I think like this in college? When I think of all the time I wasted reading books because I had to rather than because I wanted to I could slap myself upside the head!

Though it is required we hope you will collectively construct, argue, debate and build a framework for understanding the Corp of Discovery, from Monticello to the Pacific coast, not because you have to, but because you want to. Please post your insights regarding Stephen Ambrose’s fabulous text “Undaunted Courage” within this thread.

100 comments:

  1. Ok, so I am getting way ahead of myself, but even after just reading the introduction, I am so excited to make "my feet tingle." The significance of the Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis and Clark expedition enthrall me as I am preparing for this fun journey. I look forward to meeting all of you and sharing a fun time. It feels like girls camp all over again. :-)

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  2. So will you be braiding all of our hair? Jay should look stunning with a full head of Bo Derek like braids!

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  3. I must say, as I read this book, I feel like I'm getting to know Lewis, in particular, on a much more personal level. He is no longer just a name in history, but now has become an outstanding leader, scientist, and explorer. I just finished reading about the winter conditions when they were at Lemhi pass, and trying to get through the Rocky Mountains. The author mentions how unusual it was the Lewis and Clark had created a group of military men that did not argue, or at the very least oppose the decisions made by their leaders in these very difficult circumstances. Here they were, with no guarantees that they would ever find adequate food and supplies to keep themselves alive, and yet they still did not have any backbiting or revolts in the company. I think this shows that Lewis and Clark were definantly outstanding leaders on this journey.

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  4. Melanie,
    You posted an interesting insight on the leadership abilites of Meriweather Lewis and William Clark. I agree it is clearly evident they were both men with outstanding leadership abilities, particularly given the fact that many of the members of the Corp of Discovery did not fare so well with others when they returned. For example Douillard faced murder charges, Colter argued and separated from the mountain men with whom he was travelling. York argued violently with Clark.
    Lewis seems to have floundered on his return, I wonder if it had something to do with his access to alcohol? In any case, they certainly seem to have been the men for the moment.

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  5. Finally got onto the blog. I have really enjoyed this book so far. It is really fascinating to get to know these characters better. I have grown up hearing about Merriwether Lewis, but never really knew him as a person.

    This book so far has really helped me to get ot know the man and his background. I am very interested in reading and learning more.

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  6. Ed,
    Glad to hear it, wait until you get to Jay's book. After reading "Undaunted Courage", followed by "By His Own Hand", I found myself wishing for a different ending. I want to believe Merriwether Lewis did not take his own life. My reactions were similar to yours, after reading the texts I felt like I knew the men. In fact I finished the assigned texts and have gone onto read numerous other texts simply so I feel more connected to all of the players in this fabulous adventure.

    I think my favorite parts of the book were the physical descriptions of the land they were travelling through, particularly those areas where I knew we would soon be travelling. It makes me excited for this summer.

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  7. I have been reading this book and trying to figure out all the questions but the main thing that continues to occur is Lewis' motto/rule which I find very interesting and rare to fine in people. The rule to always assume the road ahead was good, until proved otherwise. All to often we find that it is just the opposite mentality. I believe this is why he was so successful in most of his ventures and why, without yet reading "By His Own Hand?", it is hard for me to imagine him committing suicide. You rarely see someone so optimistic sink so low into the depths of depression that they resort to suicide.

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  8. I just finished the chapter dealing with Lewis going to find the Shoshone over the Divide. The one thing that kept popping into my mind throughout this section is why did Lewis not take Sacajawea with him, or at least talk to her about the customs of the Shoshone. It seems to me that he just decided he knew better than a native and could sweet talk them or awe them just with his presence. To me it would be common sense to take her and the translation line as well to make contact. She would know where they were and how to communicate so they didn't run off at the first sign of Captain Lewis' party. It could have saved them a lot of grief and time.

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  9. I haven't quite got to the uploading of my picture. For now you may draw a stick figure of me. It's been a while since I have read Ambrose. I enjoy his descriptive style. It's been some time since I've been to Monticello. But I'm starting to feel that way again. Ambrose brings the geography and physical aspects of the land to life.

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  10. Ok so I am about to be too honest. It has been quite some time since I have read and enjoyed a purely historical book (with no fiction SORRY). As I am reading Undaunted Courage, I am realizing again, how much I don't know in detail about the history of our country. I have been fascinated with the detail. I feel I am getting to know Lewis and Jefferson, and early Americans in general so much better. I have throughly enjoyed learning about what "made people tick", and the dynamics of what made the United States what it was and what it has become. I look forward to the journey - I have much to read, but know that I will be a different person and better yet a different teacher for having read this book.

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  12. One of the most enjoyable things in reading the book so far is to try to put myself there with them. I know Lewis used a sextant, but if I put GPS out of my mind and convince myself that I need to understand how to use a sextant, I find that I appreciate that time better. I am amazed at how slow things went then -- Ambrose refers to it several times -- how long it takes to get to different places by horse, or boat, or foot. But the thing that gets me the most is that they get mail at all. How does it find them?

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  13. I'm only a quarter of the way through the book, so maybe the answer will come later, but they speak of the poor diet that they start off with on the river and of rationing food from the start. What happened to all of that dried soup he bought?

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  14. I am truly fascinated by this book so far. I am slowly reading through it and taking notes. I am amazed at the detail and precision with which Lewis prepared for this expedition then executed it. He prepared for every possible scenario. I find it fascinating that Lewis put so much trust in Clark, even when he didn't have too. They worked together perfectly from what I have read so far.

    It is hard to understand how they approached the Native Americans on their journey. They were refered to as children by Lewis. They wanted their support and wanted to trade with them, but it was all on American terms. Tolerance was not big on the list of things to do for the advancing Americans.

    The details with which Lewis describes his findings is also very impressive. He took this assignment to learn about Louisiana very seriously.

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  15. Bummer, I sent in a nice long post and it not take. Here we go again. I have a 40 mile commute to and from school so I am actually listening to the book on CD. Some days I get to school and wonder how I got there. My mind would have been wandering every place from Locust Hills to Benjamin Rush's doctor's office, Thomas Jefferson's personal tutoring of Lewis to imagining why Lewis' entire life was in preparation for his journey. Some thoughts that have kept me in the parking lot even after I have arrived at school: The US could have easily lost the entire Louisiana Territory to any number of countries and how excited Jefferson must have been of learning the news we could buy the whole thing, not just New Orleans. Jefferson and Lewis were both fatrherless at young ages and how easily they could have become very different men. Jefferson is not given enough credit for his vision for the continent. We always hear about Manifest Destiny and James Polk, but Jefferson deserves top billing when it comes to expansionist ideas and the commerce that could develop. I can't wait to listen to more!
    Posted by Jeff

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  16. Cory,
    I finished the text the dried up soup never comes back up... I too had the same question, what happened to some of these items? Perhaps Jay can give us some insights. Jay?

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  17. I just finished the part where Cpt. Lewis has his little run in with the Blackfeet and the author criticizes Cpt. Lewis for not making sure his men were more careful. It seems to me that, yes they should have been more careful but, they had just spent 2 months with the Nez Perce and they never had any problems with them and on their way out they didn't have any problems with most of the natives on the east of the Rockies aside from the Sioux, but that was almost 2 years back. I can understand them not taking the precautions they probably should have but the author give no leniency for their actions. What do any of you think?

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  18. Lewis and Clark were in an entirely new and different situation. We can look back and use our hind sight to judge and second guess what they did and why. But, it is amazing to me that they made it all the way to the Pacific and back. That was a great feat for anyone during that period of time.

    It seems they acted and did the best they could with their limited knowledge of the area and the peoples that lived there.

    I have been reading where it says that There are very few journal entries written by Lewis himself. Ambrose states that If we had these journals, if Lewis actual kept one, we would have a much better picture of what really happend on a daily basis. It sounds as if there are many pieces to this puzzle that need to be filled in.

    I am learning so much that I didn't know before about this entire expedition. Jefferson was a true visionary. I visited Monticello last summer and Jefferson was a truely remarkable person. This book has made these individuals more real for me. They are becoming living people not just names in a history book.

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  19. I agree with Ed, that it would be important to fill in a lot of missing information, but, how accurate would the text from Lewis be, though? I am reading about his attempts to publish his work and it is talking about the Gass prospectus that insinuated that the captains censored the journals of those others that were in the corps (p.428). If this is the case why does Ambrose believe that the missing Lewis writings would give us a more accurate portrayal than the writings of the Sergeants and privates who also kept journals. Apparently he looked over them and made some changes and corrections so maybe he felt there was no need to write his own.
    Now maybe they brought the journals together to make sure the scientific and other information was correct and not to censor the writings but do we know? I truly hope that was the case.

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  20. So I just finished the book. I was surprised to see that there was very little information on their return trip (a mere 52 pages). Did that little really happen on their return trip? I know it was a lot faster than the trip out but it seemed to me like Ambrose was feeling it was getting a little long so decided to cut short the reporting on the return trip. Did anyone else feel that way as well?

    As I read the last part, about the life of Lewis after the expedition, I started to see the same patterns I see in a lot of people today who are drug addicts: the inability to take responsibility, the lack of drive, the erratic behavior, borrowing massive amounts of money from friends and not paying it back, and disregard for those who support him. I can see how so many people believe that he committed suicide, between the drugs, alcohol, debt and loss of political clout, it is easy to understand.

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  21. In response to David's comments, I too was a little confused as to why the journals of the other Corp members were "edited". I proposed this question to my eighth grade students. Here are my top 3 of the responses I received.

    1. Because they(the soldiers) didn't know how to spell (my favorite)
    2. Because Lewis wanted to check to make sure they put down the right plants and animals and didn't get them mixed up.
    3. Because Lewis wanted to make sure their journals were happy and bubbly, otherwise no one would ever want to move out west where there were grizzly bears, fierce Indians, snakes, poison ivy, etc and Thomas Jefferson would lose all of the money he put into it. (Now that one was great).

    Imagine if we could rewrite our own journals or histories--I know that there are certain periods of time that I have left out. :-)

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  22. I also compared the editing to how much our government can often "edit" what is happening in Washington and elsewhere. No politics involved, I think many people who are put into positions of authority, often "edit" the work of others so that the more positive perspective can be shown.

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  23. I love some of the ideas that have been expressed here. I was particularly struck by David's analysis of Lewis' addiction, comparing it to those who struggle with addiction today. What a great way to teach the hazards of addiction to our students, give them a hero and show them the consequences of alcoholism or opium use. Libby I loved the activity you did with your students, i.e. having them come up with reasons that Lewis may have required that he edit their works, the last in particular is insightful. Lastly for those of you who mentioned how much you enjoyed studying the period, may I suggest "American Sphynx, The Character of Thomas Jefferson" it is a fascinating study of Jefferson, his motives and character. Please keep up your comments I am learning so much from you.
    Cindy

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  24. I'm still early on in the book and like David I'm struck with this positive attitude Lewis has. It's just so difficult to reach to that he committed suicide view at this time. Perhaps by the time I'm at the end at the addiction stuff that David mentioned I may be ready to make that leap.

    Just gotta say, I LOVE Ambrose's style. There are things like Jay's Treaty and the Whiskey Rebellion that I've tried to simplify for my students and wondered if I was missing the mark. He says just about the same thing in the same way that I've been saying them. Ah...very affirming as a teacher.

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  25. Cindy, you mentioned in a post how Jefferson deserved more credit for envisioning the continent. I heard a short story on NPR today that said Jefferson had gone so far as to map out and name several states in the midwest long before they were settled enough to admit.

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  26. Sara,
    I snickered when I read this last post. I also struggled with Jay's Treaty and the Whiskey Rebellion this year, but the final result didn't exactly sound like Ambrose. Both events are obviously very political and Jefferson's opinion would certainly be on one side of the fence for both. I read the textbook before finding better sources to represent both sides of these issues.

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  27. I am slowly digesting what the Corp of Discover did. I have reached the point in my studies where they finally reached the Pacific Ocean. I am fascinated by their persistance. It seems that every few chapters so far the statement comes up that the worst has passed; yet, another struggle soon appears. These men were determined to achieve their goal at all costs. It is disappointing that Lewis or Clark didn't credit the Native Americans more than they did. It seems to me that without them and their aid the Corp would have parished. I guess that it was difficult for them to admit that they needed help. That old Virginia pride.

    I have learned so much in these chapters about how they progressed. You hear of Lewis and Clark, but I never understood the struggles and deterination that made this a success. I have been in the Yellowstone area and seen parts of the trail. It seems so much more real when you are familiar with the geography. I am getting very excited to see more and experience more of what they did. It is remarkable what they accomplished.

    From what I have read and from the comments of others, I can see how Lewis could have struggled with depression. The section I just read talked about how he had gone for such a long period of time without drinking. The withdrawls from alcohol would have been a struggle for him. This must have been a struggle for all of them to face. The emotional ups and downs would have been very draining. Getting hopes up, then seeing more moutains to cross, or another set of falls or rapids to pass through. The unfamiliar territory and the challenges of not knowing what was ahead would wear on just about anyone. Not knowing if the next indian tribe would be friendly or not must of put strain on all of them.

    The success of the expedition is truely remarkable. They were able to travel the entire continent with a lot of uncharted territory. They did not have the use of maps, satellites or our modern GPS system. The determination to succeed is inspiring.

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  28. It seems like I am about the same place in the book as Ed. I too, thought about Lewis' heavy drinking back at LOcust Hill and his forced rehab on the trail. If someone was suffering from "meloncholy" as Jefferson called it, the exciteent of the trail would have kept you going, but only to a point. By the time they get to the Columbia, he may have hit his "point". It does appear that he recovers pretty well. More importantly, I was thinking about Lewis' mental state when the voyage is over. How does one approach life after having done something so remarkable. You could see why that might put him into a funk.
    I also agree with Ed, that the Anglo-ethnocentric attitudes prevail amongst the members of the corps. They would have died numerous times without the help of the Indians. Most importantly was the role Sacagewa plays. Not so much as an interpreter, but the fact her being the only woman amongst the men softens the threat the white man portrayed (old woman of the Nez Perces tribe told her chief that they were friendly because Sacagewa was with them)
    One last comment, it amazes me that they lived to tell their story. As I was listening to the story of Lewis and the gang getting really sick from switching their diet to berries, roots and dried bacteria infested salmon, how did more of them not die.And their medical treatments could have just as easily killed them (you are weak so lets bleed you again).

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  29. I never realized how much of their journey was to set up relations with the Indians. They found some tribes that had been exposed to the 'White Man' ways, and had their own ideas of why new people were coming into their country, and other tribes who were not familiar with the new ways of the Americans. It would have been difficult to come into each situation, not knowing how they would be received. This would have been difficult, especially when they had very few if any goods to trade with the Indians, or give presents to help them feel more comfortable with the Exploration party. It was sad to hear that in the end, most treaties made with neighboring tribes were broken soon after Lewis and Clark had put so much effort into helping the Indians learn to get along.

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  30. I just have to comment on the dried soup... When I read how much he spent on the dried soup and how much he bought....it is strange that they don't mention it again...he seemed so adamant that he purchase ALL the soup he could get. It seemed they would have plenty..interesting they had such food problems.

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  31. Ok, so I have to admit I am going back and forth between Undaunted Courage and By His Own Hand so I am not too far in either one. My 5th grade class and I were working on a Lewis and Clark unit when I came across the expectations of Jefferson about what would be found in the Louisiana Purchase country. They loved the fact that he thought that there would be mastodons and a large lake in Missouri made of salt. I had to point out that at time there was so much less information. I had a good time being able to read parts of the book that I came across which corresponded with things in the book. I have to say that I am thoroughly enjoying the way the author writes. It makes the history really come alive. Thanks for all of your comments. I enjoy seeing the perspective of so many others.

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  32. Ok Marci. I did similar things with my classes. In fact the two pages,52-53, I believe are a great introduction to what transportation was like in 1801. I had my students read those two pages and predict what inventions Jefferson imagined. We also talked about which modes of transportation would have been the most useful to Lewis and Clark while keeping th purpose of the trip intact. I learned so much from these 8th graders who live in a world of instant gratification. It is fun to see others trying these activities out as well.

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  33. I read this book about 5 years ago and as I am going through it for the second time I am amazed at how much more I a am getting from it this time. I always assumed the Jefferson decided to organize the exploration after the Louisiana Purchase. I never realized how much he wanted to have that territory explored several year prior to the purchase and that he had actually made some attempts to have it explored on behalf of the government. I was also impressed by the desire that young Lewis had to gain an education-it seems to me that he longed for knowledge. I wish that my students today had that same desire. I can only imagine the conversations between Lewis and Jefferson in the Presidential mansion. I look forward to my continued reading and greater insight into this adventure.

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  34. After recently reading The Seven Miracles That Saved America by Chris and Ted Stewart, I feel that the Lewis and Clark Expedition may very well be another miracle to add to their list. The fact that two of the most wealthy and powerful nations in the world at that time, were unable to successfully explore and set up trading posts, make the Lewis and Clark expedition even more amazing. Isn’t it interesting that LePerouse vanished and was never able to report his trading post findings? It is astounding that the British pretty much ignored the appeal of Alexander Mackenzie to develop a land passage to the Pacific for trade with Asia, especially since this would have been a great opportunity to limit the growth of the United States. The timing of the Louisiana Purchase, which was finalized on the very day Lewis set out on the expedition, is unbelievable. That they were never harmed by the Indians and could continue despite the many health problems that were miraculously cured with basically Dr. Rush Mercury pills, is incredible. I could go on and on about how miraculous this expedition was. I am loving this book

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  35. I am really enjoying all of the comments. It is fascinating to read all of the comments. Hearing what you are doing in your classrooms gives me inspiration for my own 5th grade students.

    I have just finished this book and it really is a miracle that they all survived and returned home. Just as the Corp of Discovery survived one challenge they were soon faced with another and more difficult situation. Too bad Lewis didn't give more credit too the indians and expecially Sacagewea who hleped them through many trying situations.

    I was really interested in the "Grand Plans" that Lewis had for the Louisiana Territory. It appears on the return trip that he was so anxious to get back to St. Louis and put his plan into action. There was a lot of thought and planning going into his "trading empire". I wonder what the western part of the continent would have looked like if Lewis's plan had come to be.

    Upon Lewis's return to the United States, I think his fame and popularity may have been too much for him. He didn't seem to handle it very well. The long nights of drinking and all of the balls he attended only distracted him from what he had accomplished.

    It is too bad that Lewis himself never published his journals. I think we would have a much different perspective of the exploration if he had personally done it. It is hard to understand why he didn't get the journals published. It seems that publishing the journals and facts would have only increased his popularity and influence.

    It seems that Ambrose is suggesting that Jefferson failed, in part, in not seeing that the journals were published. It suppose that Jefferson had a lot of trust and faith in Lewis and felt that he would accomplish the task.

    From the evidence that Amborse presents it seems pretty cut and dried that Lewis committed sucide. I am very anxous to read the book "By his own hand" and see what evidence they present on Lewis's death. It seems that he was suffering from alcoholism and drug addiction. He had been put into the spotlight as a national hero. He may have had too much responsibility and pressure as governor of Louisiana that he couldn't handle. But, most of all he may have realized how much he had let Jefferson down and that may have been the hardest thing for him to bare.

    I can't help but wonder what might have happened had Lewis lived to publish the journals. I wonder what the United States would look like today if his trading empire had come to pass. It is tragic that such a talented man with so much potential self-distructed.

    This has been a very good book. I have enjoyed the perspectives and information. I understand the mission and events so much better. I am anxious to see some of what Lewis and Clark saw. I am excited to experience some of what they did.

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  36. Wow…I love this book. I knew I would (it was one of those I kept meaning to find time to read). However, I used it in my class last week in a way other than perhaps most of our group would. I teach my 8th graders the steps to doing a research paper, notes, thesis statement, draft, bibliography etc. They have just struggled with footnotes. I’ve been amazed at the weird notes I’ve received from them for footnotes. Now, I love the textual notes that Ambrose puts in. I’ve gotten to the point that I look forward to them. So, I scanned one page of the end notes so I could show the students what they look like and we talked about them, but then I read to them the section about why people of Jefferson’s time thought controlling a continent wasn’t possible (nothing went faster than horse). It’s fun and amusing. THEN, I read the text note at the bottom of the page.
    Doing this gave them the opportunity to see why we have footnotes and how they’re used and it gave me a chance to tie in what we’ve been talking about and will be talking about until the end of the year—Manifest Destiny. And it gave them the opportunity to see that while books may be big they don’t have to be scary. And…yes, another and…it help them see me as a lifelong learner.
    Like I said…maybe not the thoughts everyone’s been sharing about Lewis and Clark specifically, but this book has been a valuable tool in my classroom and I just wanted to share.

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  37. Ok, so this thread has come a long way...It started with some "hair-brained" notions of hair-braiding. Well, one of the earliest journal entries of Lewis early on in the journey said that he "queued his hair" after nearly falling off of a cliff. Historian Gary Moulton thought that was odd so he went to the original source and Lewis actually "cut his hand." That is why we also try to go to original sources...

    Regarding the "potable" soup. They did eat it, especially when they were starving in the Rocky Mountains (back then almost all the animals lived on the plains and very few lived in the mountains). Everyone complained about it tasting nasty. They would have preferred some Campbell's soup, I am certain of it.

    Any questions I don't get around to answering on the blog, simply jot down and ask me on the trip!

    As an aside, I am good friends with Stephenie Ambrose, Stephen's daughter, and see her several times a year (we are board members for the national L&C organization). I also had a memorable dinner in the year 2000 with Gary Moulton and Stephen Ambrose while completing my doctorate degree in Nebraska. Someone remind me to tell the story of that meeting and some of the questions I asked him and his responses.

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  38. I just finished listening to the book (now maybe I can concentrate on the road). Thiough I had started this book many years ago I am so glad I actually finished it this time. I was unfamiliar with the circumstances surrounding Lewis' suicide/homocide (which means I really look forward to the next required text) I did use the book in my AP History class as a method of reviewing the history of 1774 including the Intolerable Acts and Quebec Act.
    Some thoughts: ed I agree that I think Jefferson failed in that he did not put more pressure on Lewis to finish and publish his journals. Their relationship was one of high admiration and maybe that kept TJ from wanting to force Lewis to complete the work before shipping off to St Louis again. I thought it was interesting how Lewis and crew set up the trading company while he was the territorial governor. Today, I would hope, that would bring consternation from the public as a serious conflict of interest.
    I do an assignment with my studebnts at the end of the year where they have to pick 5 people out of US history that they would invite to dinner. They must explain why they would invite them and what kind of interactions might result based on who was in attendance. Lewis would be one of my 5. What he saw was so new to our country, his stories would be legendary.
    One last thought: Who could have forseen young John Colter going on to such fame.

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  39. I am really struggling with this blog thing, I can't seem to get it to work. I am enjoying the book now that the actual expedition has started. I would love to see the United States that Lewis and Clark saw. It makes me a little sad to realize what we have done to our country.

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  40. I finally finished the book today, but as I was reviewing the notes I took I came across a note that the Arikaras had been shocked at the offering of whiskey, which they refused. It seems as if other tribes were open to whiskey, and particularly if the tribes to the west were less familiar with it, it would have been an excellent commodity for a farming group like the Arikara, even if they didn't want it for themselves.

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  41. Robin, I am delighted to see you were able to post on the blog. Don't worry about writing an epistle, it is fine to simply respond to what others have written as well as throw out some ideas of your own. Think of blogging like having a written conversation- but unlike many of our conversations- everyone can get in a word edge wise!

    I regularly read all of your comments and often learn from you all, in fact, I just purchase the "Seven Miracles That Made America" on Linda's suggestion. I should note by the way that I am delighted Jay (Dr. J) is finally on-line for those of you who do not know he took a nasty spill on the basketball court and tore both his ACL and MCL, he is working like a demon to get his legs working for this summer. Between my arm and his legs you may be led by the Gimp and the Crip. Throw some positive energy his way he could use it!

    Lastly, Jeff I love the assignment you described in which students are to list the five people they would like to meet with in American history and why. Were I to choose from the members of the corp of discovery I would want to speak with both York and Juan Bautist Charbonne. I have to hope for an afterlife simply to have that opportunity.

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  42. I haven't made any posts yet to this blog. I have been reading this book on my bus rides to and from work. Problem is I don't ride everyday. I am only 130 pages into the book. I have a thought on the dried soup. Perhaps they don't mention it much because it is not a highlight of their trip. It is probably kind of like the oatmeal that I eat for breakfast. It is good for me but it is not my favorite thing to eat. I have never written about it in my journal.

    I will post more later.

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  43. Wes.... I'm chuckling out loud... I am delighted to hear your life has more meaning than oatmeal. Of course, had I been on the verge of starvation as were the members of the corp of discovery I would imagine the discovery of food would make my journal. Food for thought, no pun intended.

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  44. Posted by Robin.... Jay's Response follows:

    My question is; why were Lewis and Clark so stingy with gifts to the first tribes they met? Their naive belief that their mere presence would make the natives fall in line. They truly were men of their time. Why would the natives agree to follow a new white father? I'm surprised they didn't have more trouble with the tribes they met. I had tried to read this book once before and did not get very far into it, now that I am on the journey with the Corps I am loving it. I wish I could see what they saw.

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  45. Jay's response:

    Lewis and Clark had to be "stingy" with their gift giving. They had to carry all of the goods with them and actually their greatest expense for the trip had been Indian presents. If they had not "rationed" the presents, they would have not have had any left for trading for horses to cross the mountains or for canoes to ply the Columbia estuary. As it was, they ran out of gifts about the time they arrived at the Pacific and could have sorely used more upon their return journey...

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  46. Jeff, I too love your activity of choosing 5 historical figures to invite to dinner. I would be interested in what questions my students would like to ask them if they could. I started "Undaunted Courage" at the beginning of April. I love the way Ambrose writes. The book has been very interesting to me--not like some educational texts I've read. As I read, I'm constantly looking for information that would be interesting to my 4th grade students. I know for sure I'll use some of the descriptions of the land. One thing I've learned from this reading that I didn't know before, is how close Lewis and Jefferson were. Also, I thought I understood why Jefferson purchased Louisiana, but this reading has given me a much richer understanding of all of the factors involved in that event.

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  47. I am also enjoying this book, I am still enjoying the background of Meriwether and think I need to kick my reading into high gear.... feeling a little behind. I really l like the idea of listening to the book, brilliant! My students and I often discuss the development of outdoor gear, and I am fascinated with the reality of what they lived on and what their gear was made out of compared to today, no moisture-wicking fabrics and chaffing proof designs, the Corps of Discovery truly had courage beyond measure. I truly am excited to continue my reading of the fascinating and true accounts of Lewis and Clark.

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  48. When I read that Lewis used 1000 words to describe the black billed magpie I was floored. My students couldn't write 1000 words on anything, it would be a good challenge though.

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  49. Well I'm finally on the blog. I teach year-round and have spent the past two weeks reading Ambrose. I have delighted in reading this book, learning so much about Jefferson, Lewis, and the expedition. I loved learning about Jefferson's characteristics such as on pg. 34, "Most guests found Jefferson to be the most delightful companion they ever met," and Abigail Adams comment, "He is one of the choice ones of the earth." I have also enjoyed learning of Lewis and his complex personality. On his 31st birthday he lamented that he had done little to date to "further the hapiness of the human race," and resolved "In future, to live for mankind, as I have heretofore lived for myself." I believe he accomplished that resolve.

    I have also been struck by Lewis' optimism, as stated by David J.'s post on March 16, and Lewis' absolute love of nature. P. 251 states, "He was keenly alive to sights and sounds..." and "He was so pleased with life he even found something good to say about the prickly pear..." I do understand that Lewis suffered from bouts of depression, and some question the motives of his journal entries, but I believe he truly did love and find joy in the world around him, and was optimistic at heart.

    I found it interesting that Lewis did not write much about Sacagawea and York, though their contributions were significant. I read Clark's comments about Sacagawea after she left the expedition, but what of Lewis' thoughts? It would have been beneficial to learn more about how he felt about them and their contributions...but maybe, his lack of comments says it all.

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  50. As always, I am enjoying Stephen Ambrose. I think he very succinctly identified the traditional American thinking of Lewis and Clark as "lewisandclark." I know I definitely fell into that camp before beginning this book. I didn't even know that Clark wasn't in Washington with Lewis! I'm only about 130 pages in so Clark hasn't really emerged as a definable character, but I am really liking Meriwether. I'm already cringing that such a man would commit suicide (maybe!). I'm beginning to understand the massive scope of the undertaking, and just how much courage was required to set off into the unknown as they did. It kind of reminds me of when I was preparing for my first trip to Europe. I agonized over how things would be, how I would find ATMs, the language barrier, how I would navigate through unfamiliar cities and countries. My own qualms are about 1000th of the scope that they were dealing with.
    I am also enjoying Ambrose's careful chronology, and it has clarified a lot of the events in my head. I didn't realize the expedition was planned BEFORE Lousiana was purchased by the United States, and I had no idea that Meriwether and Jefferson were so close, or that Lewis served as Jefferson's secretary. I'm hoping that Jefferson stays in the narrative as I continue, because Ambrose was definitely right about people never getting tired of Jefferson, and I am learning as much about him as any other character. I'm getting so excited for the canoeing trip! It's going to be so cool to see it through their eyes. My imagination is already running wild!

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  51. I think I grew up in the wrong time period. The frequent variashuns on spellings has been a side highlight to me wile reeding this book. I have always struggled with word spellings and I appreciate that Ambrose has kept the original spellings when quoting journal entries. Seriously though I have wondered if there was a replica of the big boat? I saw the scetch of it in the book and read the description. I just can't picture the dimentions very well. Does anyone know of a link that would show a picture of a replica? I am trying to imagine the provisions and men placed on the boat. My mind has painted a picture but I would like to see the real thing. I am really trying to get a feel for how difficult it was to get that boat up the river.

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  52. Wes....I have a ppt I've pulled from here and there that has two pictures of the replica keelboat and two guys dressed as Lewis and Clark. I've gotta say it's these to re-enactors I really see when I picture Lewis and Clark.

    We were living in Sioux City for the 200th anniversary but stupidly did not go see the keelboat display.

    If you'd like those pictures I can send them to you.

    And....

    I’ve finally finished Undaunted Courage. I think the thing that bugged me the most was how critical Ambrose became of Lewis near the end of the book. For instance, his stating how foolish Lewis had been splitting up the party in order for him to investigate the Marias. Why this bothers me is that it is unfair to use our 20/20 hindsight to judge the past and their actions. Lewis may have known it wasn’t a good idea, but felt compelled to follow this plan despite it—like when I looked at a completely flooded road, said to my friend, “Wow that road sure is flooded,” and proceeded to drive directly into it ruining my car. To this day I cannot figure out what made me drive into that flood. How do we know Lewis hadn’t massive misgivings? We don’t. The journals don’t say.
    It seemed to me that Ambrose lost some of his neutral storytelling mode and went on a Lewis attack. I’m looking forward to reading By His Own Hand for another perspective on the death question.
    But all in all, it’s beautifully written and I enjoyed the experience and gleaned lots of information.

    Oh and finally...I like elk...but THAT much? I swear they must've gotten so sick of elk!

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  53. Sara,
    I had the exact same reaction....No wonder Lewis insisted on boiling down salt, can you imagine all that lean cooked meat, sans herbs and spices. Yuck!

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  54. Yesterday, I had a History book read-a-thon. Our curriculum (Core Knowledge) has quite a few historical novels and biographies that we have in our libraries, so I thought with the end of the school year approaching this would be a great time to give the students an opportunity to read something other than Percy Jackson or Harry Potter. While they read I read Undaunted Courage and made comments to them about what I had read. I found it so interesting when Ambrose commented that the two explorers had become so entangled that they could be known as LEWISANDCLARK. I had thought that they were lifelong friends and it surprised me that they had known each other through the military. I am really getting such a different aspect of these two men. I still have quite a ways to go in the reading, but I can say that this is a really enjoyable read.

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  55. As I've been reviewing my notes, I'd like to share a question I had during my reading. If court-martials were such an important part of the discipline in the military and in the Corps of Discovery, why did they stop after Private Thomas Howard's court-martial at Fort Mandan? Did the Arikara chief's response to Private John Newman's lashing have anything to do with it? If you remember, while witnessing the lashing, the chief was "allarmed verry much," and "cried aloud." He then told Clark that "his nation never whiped even their Children." Did his response influence Lewis and Clark at all?

    Or, had the Privates been trained and disciplined enough at this point in the expedition that no further punishment by court-martial was needed?

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  56. Good question,
    I doubt we will fully no the answer; however I would guess there the Arikara's response to the beating impacted Clark and his decision to "soften" his reaction. Conversely Ambrose makes it clear that the corp had become very disciplined and there was no further need for discipline for the rest of the trip, so perhaps it is a mixture of the two.

    The discipline of the corp is ironic given the character of some of the men and their fate following the journey. Many of them were very much individualists, it is a mark of Lewis & Clark's characters that the men were willing to follow, even when on the verge of death. It seems like there are a great many lessons we could teach our students on the qualities of leadership and a strong leader, based on the experiences of the corp of discovery.

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  57. I would like to respond to Becky M.'s post of May 22. She writes her appreciation to the brave authors who present "their good and not so good perspectives of these amazing men," and comments further that "Good people can do great things and still have flaws to their character." Isn't that so true, and it would be naive to think, or teach, otherwise. Personally, I prefer to look at and ponder on the good qualities found in all men, knowing too well my own weaknesses and limitations. With that said, however, I was dismayed at Clark's response to his slave, York, when York basically begged for his freedom to be with his wife, and asked for remuneration for his time and services on the expedition. If anyone could have understood York's desire to be with his wife, it would have been Clark. To learn that Clark beat York for being "insolent and sulky" is beyond belief, but does provide a solid picture of the mind-set and attitude of the day.

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  58. I'd to comment on Sara's post on May 10. She said that the thing that bugged her the most was how critical Ambrose became of Lewis near the end of the book. I agree! In addition to the example Sara provided, Ambrose's comment that "Lewis' suicide has hurt his reputation" didn't sit well with me. It was stated as a fact, instead of an opinion. His suicide, if that is what it was, in my opinion did not ruin Lewis' reputation. Who can place judgement on a person's life, personal struggles, thoughts, and feelings, without experiencing the exact same thing yourself.

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  59. This morning as i chased a magpie out of my dog kennel I couldn't help thinking how happy Jefferson must have been when he received the specimens from Lewis. I am jealous that the east coast did not have magpies!

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  60. So, I have to admit that it took me awhile to get into this book...(like weeks where I would go read an entire other book just to avoid this one...) BUT...once I got to their actual journey, I couldn't put the book down. I loved reading about all their adventures with the Indians and Bears and near death experiences falling off cliffs, the beauty they saw...etc! I was intrigued. I keep checking the maps to see where they were, and I got more and more excited about actually seeing some of the amazing sites they saw! Wahoo...I'm excited!

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  61. I was given the assignment of writing about the men who accompanied Lewisandclark. I have been thinking more and more about these men. Yes, the leaders were given a very difficult assignment and, therefore, should have much of the glory, but the men who chose to follow and share all of the joys and difficulties deserve just as much respect. The respect in which I hold all of these men has grown while reading all the of the texts.
    May 25, 2010 6:18 PM

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  62. Every time that Ambrose mentions the gaps in Lewis's journals, it makes me so sad. As rich as the account is, I can't help but imagine how much is MISSING. But I like how Ambrose speculates on what might have happened. It really gets my imagination going. Hmmm... maybe I'm not so sad after all with the gaps. Because it allows me to fill in the gaps myself, which is also fun.

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  63. I feel terrible that this is the first time I have been able to post on the blog. I'm glad to finally be getting on because from March through May I have been completely occupied with school and my 5th grade class. I've never really blogged before but reading through the posts has been so interesting. I've learned a lot just by reading everyone's posts. I'm not as far as I should be in the reading. I'm playing catch up now. As Rebecca said in her post, getting through all the background information was time consuming and the reading was slow (just so that I could absorb everything). But I'm moving along faster now and enjoying the journey. I did find it fascinating to learn about the personalities of Jefferson and Lewis. The insight that Jefferson had into the needs of his country and his love of learning impressed me. He was a man who was ahead of his time. It's as if his whole mission in life was to bring this monumental expedition to fruition. And Lewis was a very complex man as was mentioned in some of your posts. Ambrose writes with such detail that you almost feel that you are right there with Lewis as he makes his decisions. He is extremely intelligent and a good judge of character. I also enjoyed Jeff's idea of having the students write about who they would invite to dinner. I agree that Lewis would make an interesting dinner companion as would Jefferson. Their lives were so intertwined in the beginning that it almost seemed like they were parts of the same person. I also appreciated Marci's ideas on having a history book read-a-thon. These ideas that people are sharing are fantastic! I will be posting more soon. Just wanted you to know that I'm still the picture and looking forward to this experience.

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  64. Just a few thoughts and questions as I continue reading along. I teach 5th graders and I can just imagine some of their questions. I'm wondering about the boat designs and how they were able to get everything in. It sounds very cumbersome getting them up the river. Are we going to ride in anything like this or will we be in conventional canoes?

    Also, where did they get drinking water? Did they drink out of the river (which sounded pretty dirty) or rely on finding spring water or rain water? The extremely bad dysentery that they suffered could have come from their drinking water? For some reason, I had never thought about the discipline of the men. I guess I thought since they were adults they would behave. I've been amazed at the severe punishments given to those who caused problems.

    It's also interesting to see Lewis and Clark's attitudes to the Indians. They just seem to think that they can control them. They definitely look on them as inferiors and the Indians are unpredictable in their reactions to them. I guess that was just the attitude of their time period.
    It's really true that most of history has been idealized and whitewashed. I've never really thought about some of the real attitudes of people and how they could affect things. Also some of the consequences of their actions, the alcohol drinking and problems with venereal diseases. Comes from my sheltered Utah upbringing!

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  65. POSTED BY BECKY

    Becky M.
    Honestly, it took me some time to 'get into' reading for this experience. I was reminded of some not so fun history classes in high school and collage.
    However, once I got started I found it interesting and fun to read, mostly.
    I particularly was impressed with the tenacity and fortitude of these men to accomplished a most amazing feat. Having previously read McCullough's "1776" and "John Adams" I enjoyed revisiting with people and places from those readings as they appeared in these readings.
    The description of their upbringing and formulative experiences gave a better understanding as to why they did what they did.
    However, having said that, I must confess that I was very disappointed and saddened to once again find out that more of my childhood "American Heros" were products of the 'white European male' attitudes and behaviors. The arrogance and ugliness of their actions and words towards others sickened me. How can men who accomplished such amazing tasks do so while behaving the way they did? And how could generations of school children been duped into such a one sided view of America's history for so long? My appreciation for those brave writers who are presenting the good and the not so good perspectives of these amazing men. I believe that as educators we will be better able to guide our students through their history learning experiences while being honest and up front with them. Good people can do great things and still have flaws to their character.

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  66. POSTED BY MARCI

    Marci said...
    I was given the assignment of writing about the men who accompanied Lewisandclark. I have been thinking more and more about these men. Yes, the leaders were given a very difficult assignment and, therefore, should have much of the glory, but the men who chose to follow and share all of the joys and difficulties deserve just as much respect. The respect in which I hold all of these men has grown while reading all the of the texts.
    May 25, 2010 6:18 PM

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  67. I can't believe how these men lived. On pages 232 and 233 I read about how they had slogged through a river up to their chests, cut footsteps in the face of a steep bluff with their knives, almost died and THEN killed six deer and ate for the first time that day. How did they do what they did without regular meals and with all the meat they ate they must have been, um, a little backed up.

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  68. Unlike some of the comments I've read, I have enjoyed this book from the beginning. Usually when I read I skim; however, I've been afraid I would miss something good if I did that with this book. I was thinking how impressive it is that Lewis was such a fabulous leader at such a young age. We don't know the ages of most of the men on the expedition, but he was only 10 years older than the youngest one--perhaps some of the other men were near his age or older (like Clark.) I'm amazed that Lewis could command the respect of his men and that he had so much knowledge. I connect with the following passage on p. 216 (because I am a nature lover also): He had an endearing sense of wonder and awe at the marvels of nature that made him the nearly perfect man to be the first to describe the glories of the American West.
    I also was a little surprised to read (p.217) that the men ate 9-10 lbs. of meat each. I'm wondering how Lewis and Clark managed to bring in 300 lbs. of meat before they got horses. As I've been reading the book, there are accounts here and there where Lewis takes some ingredients and makes delicious food for the men (or Indians.) Where did he learn to cook, and was it a common thing for a man in his day to be able to cook well?

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  69. OK, so I know I'm posting back-to-back comments here, but I got into reading the book and left the blogging for later. I just wanted to mention two comments Ambrose makes about Sacagawea in the book. The first is p. 260 where Lewis makes a comment in his journal about Sacagawea's lack of emotion. Ambrose writes: One wonders how the man who could be so observant about so many things, including the feelings and point of view of his men, could be so unobservant about Sacagawea's situation. A slave, one of only two in the party, she was also the only Indian, the only mother, the only woman, the only teen-aged person. Small wonder she kept such a tight grip on her emotions. Thank you Ambrose!! I think Sacagawea held up amazingly well (as much as we know) given her unique circumstances. I also loved his statement on p. 263 Clark's asking her how to say "white man" in Shoshone was the full extent of the captains' interrogation of the most valuable intelligence source they had available to them. She was a wealth of information that may not have been tapped as much as possible. I think Sacagawea is a heroine and can't wait to teach my 4th graders more about her. We always hear she acted as a guide for the expedition, but don't really stop to think about everything that entailed for her.

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  70. I agree with Marci that all of the men of the expedition deserve recognition and praise. How they endured what they did is truly incredible, and the fact that they all survived but one is amazing. I'd be interested to know what the future held for each one of them.

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  71. Jill, Thanks for agreeing with me. Since this is my assignment, I will be giving out this information at our expedition. I really am amazed that so many were willing to go on such a dicey expedition.

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  72. School's out and I hope to blog alittle. I'm not much on blogging. I haven't finished the book, but almost. I am writng in the margins and noting points of interest that fit with the essestial questions. I label each note A, B, C, or D and plan to go back through the book to write in the log. It will be like taking the trip twice.

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  73. On page 254, there is a place where Ambrose mentions a comment made by Donald Jackson on Lewis' unconcern with minerals. He speculates on what would have happened if the expedition had brought back a handful of nuggets from Willard's Creek. He thinks that early fur traders following Lewis and Clark would have been joined by adventurous miners, resulting in finding the shorter and easier trails sooner (such as the route across South Pass being found earlier). The timetable for western settlement would most likely have been advanced by a generation and the gold rush would have happened sooner along with Indian removal becoming policy much earlier. This particular theory makes me think of a comment made by David McCullough in a BYU Forum speech that he gave a few years ago. He said that history never had to happen the way it did. It is shaped by the choices and actions of the people living it at the time. It could have turned out totally different than it did. The book also mentions other expeditions that were sent out by Jefferson near the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition and how they failed to accomplish what they were trying to do. This is a tribute to the organization and discipline of the Corps of Discovery and its leaders in their ability to successfully organize themselves in order to accomplish what they were sent to do.

    As I come closer to the end of this book I have been very impressed with Lewis and his detailed writings. I love his descriptions of the different Indian tribes and their dress, customs, and lifestyles. I read the description of the Shoshones to my husband and we laughed about all the funny details. It was fun to read. I think I'll try to find the more complete text of this in the Moulton book. Also, Lewis' abilities with healing and his use of herbs is quite unbelievable! Without a doubt, they would have been in trouble without his knowledge and expertise.

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  74. I too have been impressed with Lewis. He seems to have been a jack-of-all-trades. When he starts the expedition, he seems compassionate, sensitive, fair, and level headed. I can tell he is worn to a frazzle by April 1806 because he comes close to making some critical errors. Page 357 tells about Indians stealing a saddle and robe. Lewis threatens to "birn their houses" if the articles are not recovered. Ambrose tells us how lucky it is the articles were found. If Lewis had burned the Indian houses, it would have been a permanent blot on his honor, would have turned the Chinookans against Americans, and would have caused problems in trade with the Indians. Ambrose states, "He had a lot at stake, but he had been ready to allow his anger to override his judgment." This is not the Lewis I have come to know and admire from earlier on in the expedition. I feel bad circumstances have brought him to this point.

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  75. Vickie,
    You asked “Where did they get their drinking water?” I remember reading that Lewis told the men to dip their cups deeper in the water because the top looked like it had scum on it. It sounds to me like they were drinking the water around them.

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  76. I finished just yesterday - I learned so much but definitely need to read it again. In response to Kim's being impressed with Lewis, I was so impressed by the Aftermath section where it spoke of Lewis' talents and skills running wider than they did deep. The old "Jack of all trades and Master of none" but most impressively "ALL TRADES", never have I heard of someone that knew more about more things from Botany to exploration to leadership, truly amazing.

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  77. Kim you mentioned Sacagawea and how it seems that Lewis barely noticed or acknowledged her (yet I think our history books give her a lot of credit for her help on this expedition). I noticed that Lewis really did not say much about her either, but the things he did mention show her helping greatly but unobtrusively. One that comes to mind was when her husband (Charbonneau) was trying to get control of the boat and everything started to float away. Lewis could only yell at them from a distance to try to tell them what to do, but they couldn't hear him. Sacagawea gathered in the supplies and journals and saved these items from being destroyed. I believe she wasn't given the credit she deserved by Lewis. He really didn't like her husband and thought he was rather worthless, but like you said, Sacagawea quietly gave her all for the support of the expedition, not expecting anything in return. In fact, I really have noticed from this account, if it hadn't been for certain Indians helping them out along the way, the expedition would have had so much trouble or possibly failed.

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  78. I have really enjoyed this book. I especially loved all the parts about the actual expedition. It would have made a huge difference for Lewis if he had been able to get his journals published right after his return. It was so sad to read about Lewis' life after the journey. I feel sorry for people who suffer so much with mental illness. I really felt that Ambrose hit the nail on the head in the Aftermath section when he talks about Lewis' most unique and greatest gift being that he was a truly great explorer. He had incredible leadership ability, and I loved how he talked about Lewis as not only a fantastic leader but also a great father figure to his men. He was a person who expected a lot from them, yet got out of them more than they knew they could give. He also worked right along with the men doing all the things he was asking them to do and more. Throughout the whole book, the great friendship and admiration that Lewis and Jefferson had for each other never wavered. His friendship for Clark also remained strong. I would enjoy reading a biography about Clark now, too. I think that what they accomplished was one of the most incredible triumphs of our country and becomes more important as time goes by. I'm looking forward to discussing this book with all of you in person soon.

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  79. After finishing Ambrose and the Moulton readings I can't wait to hit the road/trail/river and experiences some of what Lewis, Clark and the Corp of Discovery were able to experience. I am so impressed with what they accomplished. Not only what they did, but how they did it, not knowing from day to day or even minute to minute what was ahead of them, where their next meal was coming from etc. I am especially excited to see the White Cliffs. Maybe we will get to enjoy a feast similar to the one described by Lewis on page 275 in the Ambrose book. Similar to several of you who have posted, I wish Lewis had written more or if he did I wish we had his writings available. Excited for next week!

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  80. I didn't start this book until the day that school ended and I'm on the downhill slope--only 60 pages to go. I wanted to read most of this book before I posted because I'm feeling a little out of my league. Except for name recognition, I really knew nothing about Lewis or Clark. Although I haven't found it quick reading, it is very interesting. (Sometimes I get bogged down in the details.) I've also enjoyed reading everyone's comments and think that has helped my learning process.
    I think it's miraculous that they made it across the continent and back. I have been so impressed with Lewis' leadership skills. First, was his ability to organize, buy all the supplies, and choose good men. Secondly, he had skills in so many areas. It appears that everyone in the company respected his abilities. Even when they disagreed with him on which river was the Missouri they followed him. (I got the feeling that Sacajewea didn’t like Lewis as much as Clark.)
    I also thought he had such an optimistic personality. If he suffered from depression or bipolar disorder, he's much more optimistic and has done way more than the people in my family who suffer from these disorders.

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  81. I really enjoy reading all your posts and am delighted to see that many of you had questions and/or were intrigued by the story of Sacagawea. We will be visiting the Bannock Shoshoni Reservation and studying what we know about her with much more detail on the seminar. It seems to me that Sacagawea is the story that trancsends much of the State Core Curriculum, in that vein I am looking forward to studying her life/contributions together when we are on the road.

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  82. I am surprised if not disappointed that Ambrose book is written from a Lewis only point of view. Clark is represented as a minor character and his journals are only quoted when Lewis didn't write. Yet, when looking in our other text, The Lewis and Clark Journals, by far the greatest number of entries used are from Clark.
    I did enjoy the book and felt like it was very enjoyable reading and have underlines and scribbled on almost every page.

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  83. Comment on the minerals on page 254. These are not minerals that miners would be rushing to get. It is noted in the same paragraph that they were not considered as export items, but as minerals that could be mined and used in a local economy. Farmers would use the lead and iron to make tools and coal to heat their homes, but not to fuel steam engines for industrial use yet. These minerals were too heavy per value to ship in canoes or other river craft for the size of the river in Montana.

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  84. POSTED BY TAMARA MORTENSON
    I am surprised and maybe even disappointed that this book is written from a Lewis point of view only. Clark is make out to be a minor character. Clark's journals are only used when Lewis did not record in his and that was for a surprisingly long period of time. No quotes are used from any other expedition member. In our other text. The Lewis and Clark Journals by far most of the entries used are from Clark.

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  85. Tamara...
    I agree with your comment about feeling like Clark is treated like a secondary character. Which really surprised me considering as is pointed out that the world thinks of them as "LewisandClark" one person. I, too, have notes and scribbles on almost every page and enjoyed the book immensely, but I am reminded as with everything one reads having to do with history, one must look at bias or in this case favoritism.

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  86. After finishing the book, I sat and thought about what new insights I gained, and one of the most obvious is the essential role that American Indians played in the eventual success of the Expedition. Because I teach high school, I don't get to do much more than remind my kids that the LewisandClark expedition occurred, and I haven't had the chance to study the American West of the 19th century since I took the U.S. survey class for my undergraduate degree. But excuses aside, I admit that I knew pretty much nothing about the role of Indians in the Expedition. In my head, I just imagined them exploring totally unoccupied land (and I'm a little disturbed at discovering such a blatant remnant of Manifest Destiny in my own psyche!) and then heading back to Washington to report. Although it seems clear that the Indian diplomacy established by Lewis was ineffective, their knowledge and aid proved invaluable to Lewis and Clark. It makes me want to brush up on my Indian history in Antebellum America. And it makes me so excited to head up to Montana next week (!) to see the terrain in person. And this new perspective will absolutely change the way I teach Westward expansion and the Indian wars in my U.S. history classes. :)

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  87. I am having such a good time reading the comments. Many of you have such great insights and I have enjoyed what you are all writing. Thanks for helping me be more aware of what to look for in my reading.
    Unlike many of you, I became a history person only a few short years ago when I became involved with TAH. Now, I am having a great time learning things that I should have when I was in school (so many years ago). It is a great experience reading these assigned books. I still have more to read, but my book is loading with Post-its and questions.
    Undaunted Courage has been fascinating to me. I do have several questions, but the one that has really struck me (and hopefully, someone can help me with it) is: They approached the Indians that they met with such innocence, I wonder why they didn't spend a lot more time talking with traders and mountain men to get a better feel for what to expect? Was it strictly the idea that all Indians were child-like and could be approached like children?

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  88. Now that I am through teaching for the year, (I teach year round) I am lookng forward to going back and rereading this book after being on the trip. I want to have a visual reference to where these men were.

    Becky Mullen

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  89. I was interested in finding out more about what happened to some of the men and Sacagawea in the Corp of Discovery after they returned. If you're interested, Moulton provides more information in the Afterward in "The Lewis and Clark" journals.(Our other blue book.)

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  90. Learning Log #2 for “Undaunted Courage asks, "What role does the federal gov't play in exploration then and now?" It seems to me that big pushes for exploration usually have government to back them up, like the exploration from Europe to the Americas, Africa, and Asia. I think the move to cross the continent was huge, comparable to our push into space or deep ocean exploration.
    There was a natural exploration happening at the time of Lewis & Clark's expedition because people always seem to push westward for new land. It was slowly being explored on its own. I think it would have happened anyway, but with the Louisiana Purchase, and Jefferson's mindset we needed to know what our land entailed. We were concerned economically with transportation and trading routes. We wanted to learn more (and bring under our control) the native peoples and incorporate them into our trading system.
    With regard to exploration and the government today, I thought about how the Navy explores and maps ocean floors. Since Antarctica and the Equator are key elements in the global weather system, the gov't funds science and exploration in Antarctica. NASA was the big push in the 60's and 70's and continues to get funding for exploratory missions to Mars. There's also a simulated voyage to Mars being done by the Russians. In space exploration, governments are starting to combine resources in an effort to share costs and information.
    Does it seem, as in Lewis and Clark’s time, when the great minds got together to talk or form societies that scientists have always been less political as it limits the sharing of information?

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  91. Better late than never. Sorry I have not been blogging. I just spent more than an hour reading all the posts and I feel sad that I didn't blog as I read the book and conversed with you all about the book. (My bad). I am like Cindy and listened to Undaunted Courage on CD. My husband started telling people I was having and affair! He said, "She goes to bed with Lewis and wakes up with Clark!"
    I think it has been interesting that so many of us were curious about "The soup" Ambrose made such a mention of it that I guess we were confused when he talked about them ever being hungry.

    Isn't it great to read American History? I love how it all fits together and how it is all about people...good people trying to do good things.
    I was very intrigued about all the sexual relations and the spread of disease with that. The idea that the Native Americans had with sharing their women with the white men.

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  92. Anna,
    Your last post made me chuckle, you started your entry chuckling over your husband's complaint that you seemed to be having an affair with Lewis & Clark and ended your post with you curiosity about sexual relations on the expedition..... hummm... should we be concerned that we are all sleeping together river side? ;-)

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  93. Marie,
    Thanks for all of your insight into the second learning log question. It has helped me to think about all the things that we are currently exploring. So often I have thought how much we have already explored and how there seems to be no unknown territory left to find out about. But space is definitely open to a lot of exploration and the financing of this venture has been controversial at times. Perhaps, besides looking into space, we could begin to explore the human mind and all of the things we have yet to find out about it!

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  94. After Lewis and Clark returned from their trip I felt quite a bit of frustration at how long it took Lewis to get to Washington DC. I thought he would be eager to tell Jefferson his findings. I think his delay shows the beginning of the depression that was going to overtake him eventually.

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  95. I have wondered why there wasn't talk of another trip to return and explore again. Was it just so overwhelming to even imagine doing it again? Or did any of them do a return trip? Who was the next group of explorers that followed in their path? Just curious, I am sure I will find out in a few days. I just watched a National Geography video that was a fun review and I loved how they kept pronouncing Sacagawea's name. It was the same way I heard Jay pronounce it at a pre-seminar. So do we need to pronounce it like that during the seminar?
    Cindy, no worries about sleeping river side, I know I will not be feeling very feminine with no make-up, no showers, roughing it on the river doesn't sound like a romantic set up, huh?

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  96. So here is my third entry...I guess no one has had time today to check the blog...I am going to come with an open mind to learning and enjoying the experience. I am wondering why President Jefferson didn't see the urgency of sending another group out right after the first group got back. Maybe part of the original group would have volunteered to go back after checking in with family and associates and then going again. Who was the next group that followed?

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  97. I couldn't help wondering that if Lewis' papers were "..dearer than life itself.." when he was confronting the Blackfoot warriors on the Marias, what might be the reason for the "gap" ?
    My inclination was that he had a complete set while on his way to Washington, but in the aftermath of his death, or perhaps done spitefully, parts of the collection went astray.
    Given Lewis' devotion to the mission, his meticulous attention to all other details, and his obvious excitement by what he was seeing and discovering, it is incomprehensible to me that he would have simply stopped writing for 6 months.

    William never missed a day of recording. Perhaps Ambrose should have given more credit to Clark for the completeness of his account that allows us to see the Expedition so clearly.

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  98. In response to Karl, I wonder if Lewis' very meticulous and lengthy, detailed descriptions of the flora and fauna he encountered were the reason for his lack of daily journal entries. He also included illustrations, wrote about Celestial observations, and described the people, economics and politics of at least 72 different Indian tribes or bands. Because he felt the impetus to accurately record all he saw and discovered, perhaps he assigned Clark, or relied on Clark, to record other details of the expedition.

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  99. As I read through the posts something Ed wrote stuck out to me.... How would the west have been different had Lewis' ideas for trade been instituted? I think there would have been a more specific area of growth, with a more pointed purpose of economic growth. But, I also speculate that the railroad would have been built to transcontinentally much sooner. I also wonder if trade would have been a stronger focus, if relations with the many various Indian tribes would have been better, seeing that they needed to interact and rely on one another for economic sake.... interesting.

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  100. I am grateful for the suggestion given early on in the posts to listen to Undaunted Courage, ebook style. I listened to this daunting book as I did so, I was shocked about a few details. First of all, I had no idea the planning of the exploration and beginning of the exploration itself all happened BEFORE the land was actually purchased. Also, had the sale not gone through, they would have explored it anyway, which I found gutsy.
    Every time the amount of game eaten was mentioned, I couldn't quite stomach the thought and I had a nasty visual of bone marrow being sucked from bones that I couldn't quite shake.
    I was disturbed by the "relations with the Indians," call me naive, but I guess I never thought about how the men and the natives interacted with one another, but I didn't realize it was so rampant.
    Lastly, I felt bad for Lewis that so much was expected of him upon his return. I wanted to read the phrase "Lewis published his journals," but the opportunity never came... I know what it is like to have far too many projects on your plate and never enough time to focus on finishing them... frustration. I empathize with Lewis, I truly do!
    I hope these thoughts make sense.

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